Question: Bob, why do you still treat them [the Church of God Restoration] like a legitimate group of followers of Jesus Christ?
Answer: I do accept the Restoration is a legitimate Christian group. But let me quality that position. I believe people are getting saved through the Restoration’s labors. I believe the Restoration congregations have a lamp stand and are congregations of God.
But personally I would not return unless they renounced the one true visible church (OTVC) teaching and their sectarian and bigoted spirit they have toward other Christians that leave them or they put out over doctrinal issues.
There are many other areas in my opinion that the Restoration also needs to change. However I think there is much we can learn from them and I have encouraged most of my close Christian friends to go and attend their meetings at least once. I have also encourage the deacons and elders at the Vienna congregation where I attend to go to their meetings and especially their school program.
When I look through the New Testament and especially Revelation I see there are many problems in the congregations of God. In the book of Revelation five of the seven congregations got a bad report. It is interesting to note that they still had lamp stands and were still congregations of God. There is no perfect congregations.
My experience with the Restoration/Guthie groups has not been the same as yours. I have benefited much from both groups. When I first met Ron Walter I was a sin-you-must, worldly, sinful, 5 point Calvinist. I was in bondage to smoking, I read adult magazines, I had a bad anger management problem, and I was quite happy in my Romans 7 form of godliness that denying the power to have victory over sinning.
Through my contact with the Guthie/Restoration group I learned that eternal security was not true and that God had power to deliver a person completely from willful and known sinning.
I have memorize that I will treasure as long as I have a mind. I remember my conversation with brother Merle Smith 24 years ago as if it happened yesterday. How to deal with me and how we when to the chapel in Charis campground and he passionately prayed with tears for me to be free from smoking. I had struggled for 3 years with my smoking problem and just could not get the victory. I got up from that prayer bench and I have never smoked since.
Beside being saved from my sinning and sinful nature I learned how to dress modest, how to conduct myself toward the opposite gender, how to act in a socially acceptable way, and how to live a life of victory. I learned how divorce and remarriage is adultery, why we should be conscientious objectors, how we give 100% not 10% to God, and many many other truths and I love and hold dear.
I was also introduced to many “holiness authors” from outside that Guthrie/Restoration groups that have become a great help to me spiritually. For me it was while with the Guthrie/Restoration groups I learned much of what I hold to be truth today.
After I left Chilliwack congregation I was in the Aylmer congregation of the Restoration for 5 years. In that congregation I found shining examples of Christian living. People that from what I could see where living a closer live to God that I was. People that I could look up to as true examples of holiness in heart. Now, not all are what they profess to be and I found that out in a number of cases. But that is the way it always is. In a mature congregation that is 10 to 20 years old you have about 20% spiritual then the other 80% is made up of those that are babies in Christ, those that are up and down, the hypocrites, and the unsaved.
So my list of what is good there is longer than my list of what I consider is wrong and unscriptural. Keep in mind also that I didn’t leave the Restoration I was put out. And even when I was put up and asked brother Henry H. to just let me attend but he didn’t feel like he could do that and I understand.
So while I was willing to push the envelope by giving bHenry H. my list of the main things that I disagreed with I was more than willing to stay and had no thought what so ever of leaving.
January 14th, 2010 at 12:07 pm
Bob I agree that there were good things happening in the beginning but in the beginning it was no resemblance or connection to what it became even after 10 years. It was not “the Restoration” back then.
The good we got at the beginning was when we were with the “Guthrie” people that you would now look down your nose on and judge as compromisers, we were still striving to be without man-rule and bigotry back then.
Unfortunately it is becoming obvious that it was from the later years that you began to form your fleshly “outward standard” ideologies. Danny was getting them too. But “having begun in the Spirit are we then made perfect by the flesh?” It is “another gospel” and “another Jesus.” Those who are “in the Spirit” are the children of God, not those who are “made perfect by the flesh.” Paul spent most of his time trying to get that message through over and over again.
Those who trust completely in Jesus are saved, not those who trust in a religious code, a false ministry or belonging to the OTVC. The clothing and group salvationists are Pharisees. They are not trying to evangelize but to switch people from other religious groups to their own. Your writing betrays your lack of depth of spiritual discernment. I fear you have never “come out” of the real Babylon but only moved across the street.
January 14th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Hi Ed,
>>>It was not “the Restoration” back then.
OTVC is OTVC. Whether it is the Restoration or Guthrie. I agree that Restoration is a 5x or 10x version of Guthrie but it just the same spirit in my view. Sectarian and bigoted against other believers. Thinking they are it. Pointing people to the big golden calf of the demi-god “ME”.
>>>The good we got at the beginning was when we were with the “Guthrie” people that you would now look down your nose on and judge as compromisers, we were still striving to be without man-rule and bigotry back then.
I am sorry Ed but I don’t look down my nose at the Guthrie people. I disagree with their position as I disagree with the Restoration. I couldn’t be part of either. My dear wife Susan told me a while back in one of our conversations about the R that there was a way back for me. I told her I knew that, but in order for me to come back to the Restoration I would have to backslide and forsake God.
>>>Unfortunately it is becoming obvious that it was from the later years that you began to form your fleshly “outward standard” ideologies.
No I think it was still while we were with Guthie that I formed my view and standards on outward things.
>>>But “having begun in the Spirit are we then made perfect by the flesh?”
No not at all. We are make perfect (complete) by Christ and not in the flesh but in our spirit.
>>>Those who trust completely in Jesus are saved, not those who trust in a religious code, a false ministry or belonging to the OTVC.
I agree with this completely!
>>>The clothing and group salvationists are Pharisees.
I agree that those that make clothing and what group you are of are in error. I won’t go as far as you to call them Pharisees. Keep in mind you will be judged the same way you judge (Mat 7:2) and make sure you love mercy.
>>>Your writing betrays your lack of depth of spiritual discernment.
I would agree that I lack spiritual discernment and I thank you for pointing that out. I am doing the best I can to work through all these things and be lead of the Lord. Please remember me in prayer!
>>>I fear you have never “come out” of the real Babylon but only moved across the street.
Well you know what they say. It is one thing to come out of Babylon but another thing to get Babylon out of you.
I am sure I have some of Babylon (confusion) and even some Restorationism left me in. Please pray for me that God will shine his pure line in my pathway that I may be able to see this and make the corrections that I need to make.
I can say though Ed that I love to be instructed, corrected, and rebuked. I rejoice to have my errors revealed so I can forsake them and be more like Christ. So if you feel led to send me a list of the areas in my life where you see I am in the wrong we can pray together and ask the Lord to show me the truth so I can put off all that is false and wrong.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
January 16th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
OK Bob, I’ll just say this before you run it through your shredder; If someone gets sucked in and their family is broken up because of your encouragement what will you say to them? What will you say to those who are not allowed to think or judge for themselves, who are brainwashed into believing they are the only ones and everyone and every church outside their walls is going to hell if they don’t join them when they have a chance?
They are made to believe that if they even consider that anything is amiss with their ministry God will throw them in his dumpster. That only through their “ministry” can they hear from God, that who ever does not agree with Danny Layne is lost. That whoever opposes them is condemned to hell. Those who don’t bow down to the golden image of man-rule are not allowed to visit their grandchildren, parents are dishonored by children, wives are encouraged to separate from husbands.
When I speak of the Restoration in terms like “beast” I am referring to the system, not the individuals deceived by it. Danny made it clear years ago that he believes in the church of God as a system, not as being the people who attend it. His argument in court was that the people come and go but the “church” is separate from them and therefore should own the property. In functioning reality he is the head of the “Restoration” church. Why don’t you ask him if he believe that he is the 7th trumpet angel of Revelation?
January 17th, 2010 at 6:29 am
Hi Ed,
Let me mediate and pray on this for a few days and then Lord willing I may get back to you.
Thanks!
Bob.
January 22nd, 2010 at 1:41 pm
Hi Ed,
Okay I have given this some thought.
1. I will change/remove the posts on my site where they suggests people should go to the R meetings.
2. I will only suggest that people go there that I have discussed the R’s errors with and giving them a firm warning of the dangerous and how attractive the R can seem to be.
3. I will not suggest any new believers or those that are not aware of their errors go there. I will suggest they don’t go.
I have added the following to a number of posts.
Note: 01-21-2010 — I am no longer suggesting that people attend the Church of God Restoration Meetings. I am concerned that someone undiscerning might go there and join up with them only to find out they are not all that they say they are. In fact I am now suggesting that people don’t attend their meetings unless they go with a minister of the Gospel that understands the errors of the group.
I am in a different place than you. I have not been out as long as you have been and I didn’t leave by choice. I also hold to much of what the R teaches, I love (yes love) their outward standard, love their worship form, love the people, and love (yes love) much of what they teach.
I miss them very much and I sit here with tears rolling down my face thinking of all the lovely Christian people in the at group (especially all the beautiful children and young people) that I can’t have fellowship with any more. I feel like I have been robbed of all my friends. I feel like part of my live have been stolen from me.
By God’s grace I have never had a bitter feeling toward them and I love them all. I have always repaid evil toward me with good toward them and slander toward me with my sending up for them before others.
But I know that their has been a final separation and that I could never go back nor would them every want me back.
Glory to God that I have made many good Christian friends that are very zealous for the first two commandments.
Thanks again for your concern and the things that you have pointed out to me that have caused me to think. I think I can learn from anyone and I always love to be found in error so I can change.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
January 25th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
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July 8th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
What’s the purpose of the information about the Restoration on this site Bob?
To sing their merits, but tell “your side” of why you are not there?
Why have the site at all? I see it as a help to their cause, if nothing else. If I didn’t know anything about this group, and I saw read this site, I think I’d be interested. Your statements here have the same results as what you call “slander”. It draws attention the them, and you, and also interest in both.
Please pray about why you have this information on here, and to whose end and purpose it’s for. God’s? Yours? Honest Christians seeking truth.
This is written in charity