Daniel S. Warner and the earlier ministers of the Church of God (Anderson) taught that the restoration of the church was prophesied by the Old Testament Prophets, in the New Testament, and in the book of Revelation.
They taught that 270-1530 was the Papal age, 1530 -1880 was the Protestant age, with 1880 being the year the Church of God was restored. Warner describes how he came up with these dates in chapter 13 of “Birth of a Reformation”.
From a number of scriptures in Daniel and Revelation, he took “time, times, and half a time”, “42 months” or “1260 days” (Dan 7:25; 12:7, Rev 11:3; 12:6; 12:14; 13:5;) to mean the 1260 years of the Papal age, holding that in symbolic language one day is one year.
Warner claims that “historians have fixed at about the year 270 A.D.” as the date that the “substitution of man-rule for the Holy Spirit-rule” was made, but provides no evidence for this claim. The 1260 years of the Papal age is added to this date of 270 which gives the end of the Papal age as 1530 AD.
Then using the symbol from Revelation of “three days and a half” (Rev 11:11), with each day equaling a century, Warner held that the duration of the Protestant age was 350 years – which brings them to 1880. This date, according to Warner, was the beginning of the full restoration of the Church of God, which he calls the ‘Evening Light’ age.
I reject the date of 1880, as the dates 270 and 1530 hold no historical significance. As they hold no historical significance, they could only be obtained by dating backward 350 years and 1260 years from the year 1880. While there is Biblical authority to use the symbol of “one day for a year” (Num 14:34; Eze 4:6), there is no Biblical authority to use ‘one day as a century’; and Warner did not offer any either.
The Church of God (Restoration) builds their movement dating on the same dates that the earlier Church of God (Anderson) ministers did. They also hold that in about 1930, the Church of God (Anderson) became apostate and there was silence in the spiritual heavens for “the space of half an hour” (Rev 8:1).
This one ‘half hour’ is supposed to mean 50 years, using ‘one hour’ in symbolic language as ‘one century’. The time of the silence period ended in 1980 – which was about the time of the beginning of Daniel Layne’s ministry. Here again, there is no Biblical authority to have ‘one hour’ equaling ‘one century’ in symbolic language.
Due to Warner’s teaching on divorce and remarriage (where he did not require divorced couples that had remarried and had a living spouse to separate in all cases), I would hold that Warner made an allowance for adultery.
If God indeed restored the church with all truth in 1880, then why would God have left Warner in the dark on such an important teaching as adultery?
The Church of God Restoration teaches separation from adulterous marriages of this type, while Warner did not. I do not see how the Restoration can hold that Warner’s movement could be the ‘Restoration of the Church’, as according to their teaching he allowed adultery. Also, for this reason I do not see why they would build the dates for their movement on a movement that, according to their teaching, allowed adultery.
Further, the ministers assembled in the General Camp Meeting at Moundsville, West Virginia in June 1901 confirmed Warner’s teaching that those in a second marriage must remain in their marriage union if they got into the second marriage not realizing it was unscriptural. This decision was published in the Gospel Trumpet paper and in tract form.
I find it interesting that the Restoration considers Warner’s movement to have started to fall around 1910 over the allowance of the necktie, where all along they were allowing people to stay in marriages that the Restoration considers adultery. I would think that they should take the position that allowing people to stay in adultery is more serious than putting on a necktie.
With no historical significance for the date of the fall of the church and the end of the Papal age that this system uses, it is clear this is a case of back- dating just to get 1880. Also, with no Biblical authority to interpret “three days and a half” as 350 years, the whole system falls flat, and anyone who believes this teaching should be embarrassed to admit that they believe it.
I am embarrassed to admit that I used to believe it.
November 16th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Bro Bob: Great write-up with regard to past date setting teachings in the Church of God Movement. We too have been taught very similar timelines, but with a focus on 1930 as the opening of the seventh seal. In recent years, we have had to lay aside these teachings and biases and take a fresh look at the book of Revelation. While I still believe the overall Revelation message is an outline of church historical happenings, with application to our day and time, the old timelines and dates that we were taught are indeed in err. We posted a similar article on our website at on the Seventh Seal in the Book of Revelation.
November 17th, 2008 at 12:46 am
Hi Dale; Read you article with interest. Pretty funny about the 1980 was to be the time that “Communism would have taken over the entire world”. We were taught that 1880 was the beginning of the ministry of Danny Layne or the beginning of a new move of God in which Layne was one of the ministers used of God in that move.
December 30th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
Bob: We recently added some new pages to our website regarding a comparison of the timelines for both the 6th and 7th seal Church of God movements. You and your blog readers might find them interesting as it relates in some manner to the prophetic teachings of the Restoration.
The 6th and 7th Seal Timelines Compared
December 31st, 2009 at 7:43 am
Hi Dale,
Thanks for the update. I took a quick look at the article. While I will try to find time to read it over later, I have to admit this is not a subject I am very interested in.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
January 12th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
I find it interesting that so many deceptive groups build their foundation on a few verses in some prophetic book, especially Revelation. Even though I was in the Guthrie and Layne groups for many years I find it hard to fathom how you can rest a whole movement on “at evening time it shall be light.”
And you can make “Babylon” and “come out of her” fit anything you want. I believe F.G. Smith wrote most of the interpretations on Revelation. He also wrote a book that is not as well known called The Last Reformation. In it he more or less prophesied that their movement would keep increasing until it filled the whole world and then the Lord would return if I remember correctly. (I don’t have the book but I read it many years ago)
Like some of the other old books I have run across over the years, it probably got pulled because things didn’t turn out like that.
The Holy Spirit never lets us get away with covering over sin or errors. Like I said when the Restoration crashed and burned around us, God doesn’t need firemen in his Kingdom, if it’s “wood hay and stubble” let it burn. When He inspired the writing of the scriptures everything got put in, even the failures. I wish we could all do that too instead of protecting our golden calfs at the expense of making God look bad.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Hi Ed,
>>>I find it hard to fathom how you can rest a whole movement on “at evening time it shall be light.”
Keep in mind that you used to believe that also Ed.
>>>He also wrote a book that is not as well known called The Last Reformation. In it he more or less prophesied that their movement would keep increasing until it filled the whole world and then the Lord would return if I remember correctly. (I don’t have the book but I read it many years ago).
I have the book right here. The Last Reformation by F.G. Smith was written in 1919.
I did look over chapter 9 “The Church of the Future” and chapter 14 “The Last Reformation” and I didn’t see that.
You may want to look at a searchable copy of The Last Reformation by F.G. Smith online and post the quote.
Here is a search on leaving to babylon nothing.
Comments on the following scriptures will be where you find those kinds of statements where there will come a time when there will be no more saved in Protestantism.
“And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.” Rev 18:21-23
In The Revelation Explained F.G. Smith pg 374/375 states this has to do with the second coming of Christ.
You could look at Danny Layne’s Revelation tapes and if I remember correctly he would say this will happen before the coming of Christ when all the saved leave Protestandism and come to the one true visible church — the Church of God Restoration sect.
It appear that according to this believe either no one is saved in Proestandism or it will be a long time before the coming of Christ.
>>>Like some of the other old books I have run across over the years, it probably got pulled because things didn’t turn out like that.
The book is still around and hasn’t been pulled.
Thanks!
Bob.
January 13th, 2010 at 3:10 am
I do not know where to begin. But this whole writing is rife with the fallacy of believing a thing is false because you don’t believe it. If that makes sense.
I still believe in the 270, 530, and 1530 and 1880 dates, but not because of D.S. Warner or any of the COG schisms and 7th seal sects. Those who no longer believe this never believed it the right way in the first place, nor were they taught it correctly. The dates are powerfully significant, but for different reasons thatn what Birth of the Reformation claims. But we cannot say the dates are wrong because we no longer believe this. That is an equal fallacy. Nor can we say it because D.S. Warner had no proof. One can have no proof that there is a fire at your job right now, but if you are not there you cannot say they are wrong merely because you don’t see evidence of it or believe it.
I will indicate what I use the dates for and what I am hearing that the dates were used for by these postings and they are two different things.
AD 270 - BOR (Birth of Reformation) - man rule substituting H. Spirit rule
AD 270 - (True History) The Church/State controversy in the Roman Empire came to a head in AD 270 and this book proves it.
See this on this website:
http://brepols.metapress.com/content/y9n52125674ll029/
A.D. 530 - The ten kingdoms and the seven forms of government in the roman empire were not in full swing until A.D. 530. An independent map, not connected with the church of God shows this.
See this on this website:
http://www.friesian.com/germania.htm
A.D. 1530 - Read about the unaltered Augsburg confession and Martin Luther that occured in exactly 1530 as the beginning of Lutheranism which amounted to Prtotestantism. — http://www.martinlutheroshkosh.com/node/236
A.D. 1880 is used by historians to indicate that a great HOLINESS AWAKENING was occurring around the world and especially in America.
See this on this website:
http://www.empowered21.com/history_19th_century_holiness_movement.php
A.D. 1930 — Decline of religious interest. Even during the Great Depression and Hitler’s rise. An Apostasy of the church, especially Holiness churches.
See this on this website:
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~UG02/NewYorker/religion.html
I still teach the dates for this reason. And we all agree on A.D. 33.
However, I agree with all of you that 3 days and a half is a stretch to say 3 centuries and a half. The three days and a half mean 3 years and 1/2. The same period Daniel prophecied in his 70 weeks where Messiah would be cut off. It is a symbol that the two witnesses shall be cutoof just as the Messiah was. It is not to be taken as a literal amount of years. Since that is true, 3 1.2 years can symbolize 3 1/2 centuries and 3 1/2 Millennia, as well as 3 1/.2 decades. The number is a symbol. The number is a symbol. The number is a symbol. SO splitting hairs over 3 centuries, 3 days, or 3 years is to misunderstand the nature of numbers in the revelation.
One last thing. The pioneer wannabees that have risen up and some of you on this post, show a gross misunderstanding of the Revelation when you nail these dates down as firm dates for these things. The Roman calendar is inaccurate so we say these things occured AROUND these times, give or take some years. It is not to be understood as exactly 270, 530, 1530, etc. Remember, The Numbers are Symbols. The 1,260, the 42 months, the 3 days and a half, the 1,000 years, are all symbols.
God bless you all.
thegreattrumpet.org
January 14th, 2010 at 11:18 am
Hi Clifford,
I read your post though and I may respond to some of your points at a later time.
Thanks!
Bob.
January 14th, 2010 at 10:49 pm
Hi Clifford,
I hardly know where to start with your post. I don’t think I said that the 1880/1530/270 dates were false because I didn’t believe in them. I don’t believe it because nothing happened on those dates and Warner was just back dating. He started his own sect in 1880 so he took 3 1/2 days to be 350 years and got 1530, 1 day to 100 years. Then he got the 1260 days and make those days to be 1 day to 1 year and got the date 270. Well nothing special happened in 270 and nothing special happened in 1530. But something special, at least to Warner, did happen in 1880. Six people started the no-sect sect.
Personally I am embarrassed to admit that I at one time believed these dates. It is just paid and simple back dating.
AD 270 — sorry but the church was fallen long before 270. And with 1000’s of history books writting about the church soon or later some one would like 270 as the date.
AD 1530 — Here again nothing important happened.
A.D. 1880 — a great holiness awaking. You can’t be serious. That was the time of the great decline in the holiness movements.
A.D. 1930 — you getting this from the 1/2 hour. Now we got 1 day for a year, 1 day for 100 years and now an hour for 100 years. Oh what lengths people will go to validate their no-sect sect as predicted in the Bible. The great golden calf of the demi-god “ME”.
All I can say is give up the idea of validating your no-sect sect with Revelation dating.
Are you with one of the 7 Seal group congregations and if so which one?
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
January 15th, 2010 at 1:02 am
Brother Mutch:
Thank you very much for your comments. I am sorry my response will be so long.
I must encourage you that I believe you are on the right track and I love your expression, the “no sect sects.” You have gone forward and not backward. It is a difficult thing to come out of these come outters. It is even hard for me to hear anyone sing “Thy children are gathering home.” “The Church’s Jubilee”, etc.
One more thing, my credentials to talk about this, comes from the fact that I have been denounced by both the sixth and seventh sealers. No one really listens to me, so just to reach out to you is a blessing. Your honesty is also a blessing. Keep digging, don’t give up!!
I wish that you will understand what I am about to say. More importantly, I wish you would BELIEVE what I am about to say.
Fallacy #1 Your comments are sectarian IF you believe that no one can come up with those dates unless they got them from the no sect sects.
If you truly believe that, then the no sect, sect got you. Because I did not get my dates from D.S. Warner, Emerson Wilson, Danny, or any of the no sect sects. I was teaching this WITHOUT BACKDATING. I agree with you that D.S. Warner was backdating. But he backdated to get to 1880.
Dear dear Brother, I am not doing a good job of communicating, but let me ask you something? Is it possible that D.S. Warner and the no sect sects could backdate and use these dates for one purpose and be wrong, but yet the dates actually fit prophecy???? The greater question is, are you delivered from these unsaved folks enough to accept the truth from them, even though they are in error and far from the truth? [Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat] Because they were a no sect sect, were they wrong for pointing out that sects are not better than unity??
You said, “He started his own sect in 1880 so he took 3 1/2 days to be 350 years and got 1530, 1 day to 100 years. Then he got the 1260 days and make those days to be 1 day to 1 year and got the date 270.”
I agree 110% with you on this. I am ashamed that I was taught this without recognizing that this is what he was doing. But this is not altogether what he did. He used history but did not know how to use the history correctly. Without the 33/270/530/1530 dates, the Revelation is a dead book. Those dates are true, give or take some years, or many of Revelation’s prophecies are uninterpretable. But the 1880 date and the 3 centuries and a half was totally BACKDATING!!! I could not agree with you more.
But I totally disagree with you on this statement: “nothing happened on those dates.” Well nothing special happened in 270 and nothing special happened in 1530.
How could you say that? Because of Warner’s error you gonna just ignore the big Augsburg Confession and the declaration of Protestantism in 1530. As I said in my post, the date is a symbol. 1530 is a symbol of Protestantism whether D.S. Warner likes it or not. Whether Danny, Clifford, Emerson, or anyone sixth or seventh seal refutes it or not, is like refuting that 911 happened on 9/11/2001. Although there are people who do not believe 911 occurred and the whole thing was fake.
I was educated at Depaul University in Chicago and have a Bachelors from that Catholic college. I have a Masters from International Theological Seminary and a Doctors in Church History from the same school, and all of my educators agree that 1530 was the official start of Protestantism.
A system as complex and enduring as the Papacy, did not begin over night. It took an Apostasy and Martyrdom and wiping out of the true faith. A.D. 270 is the beginning of so many things that led to the Papacy. Did you know that Monastic living began in A.D. 270?-
http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/ch/CH.h.Arnold.CH.16.html
This ascetic lifestyle was necessary to keep people from the truth. This record is in the Vatican.
I also wonder if you know that the Roman Empire fully developed into 10 kingdoms and seven forms of government in A.D. 530? I copied the website which shows the map of the Roman Empire in 530 and, the map shows the seven heads and ten kingdoms. The map is from official historical records.
To say nothing happened is unconscionable and counter-intuitive. Something did happen. In fact, the Roman Empire became what the Bible said it would come to be AROUND that time.
The way I teach Revelation, I would like to take the AD 313 date more than I would the AD 270. AD 313 Constantine made Christianity the state religion. Books were confiscated and the 10 general persecutions were in full swing. This was 43 years after 270, but I don’t teach these dates as material facts they are symbols. 1,260 years is a symbol.
So something happened significantly in the Christian world in 33, 270/313, and 530. It is counter-history to disagree with this. Especially if we deny history because we are convinced Warner backdated so we cant even accept history now?
So now we come to the A.D. 1880 date. I agree TOTALLY with you. “something special, at least to Warner, did happen in 1880. Six people start the no-sect sect.” {hahahahahaha] nice touch!! That was actually funny and had me laughing most of the night!! I shared it with Rita, my wife and she is laughing most of the night. We also are embarrassed to admit that we at one time believed the 3 days and half led to 1880 from 1530. It is just plain and simple back dating.
Here is what you wrote: “A.D. 1880 — a great holiness awaking. You can’t be serious. That was the time of the great decline in the holiness movements.”
AGREED! and also funny. Ok. Holiness awakening is an oxy-moron, but, what cannot be denied is the many groups that TAUGHT two works of grace and other weird holiness doctrines including fear of every new thing like neck ties, radio, electricity in homes, etc. To ignore that the Quakers, Mennonites, and other holiness groups sprung up in the late 19th century is to deny history in favor of fighting Warner’s backdating.
But remember, we are looking at HISTORY. Your statement that 1880 was the time of the great decline in the holiness movements, needs to be interpreted not in the light of what you and I understand in 2010. Their zeal and doctrine and spirit must be judged in light of the times they lived in. They had come out of sinning churches and endeavored to live holy and went into another type of error in the name of holiness, especially Azusa street Pentecostalism. But they thought they were right. They had not declined from the teaching of two works from the Wesleyan Methodist tradition, this was all new.
So let me state and restate the dates.
WARNER RHYMES
AD 33 Death of Christ Death of Christ
AD 270 Spirit Rule replaced [313] Era of Pagan Christianity - Constan
AD 530 Papacy Rises Era of Papal Christianity - Popes
AD 1530 Protestantism Era of Protestantism - Augsburg, etc.
AD 1880 Start of no sect sect Holiness Movement [Sects]
AD 1930 W.S Goodnight -7th seal Decline of Holiness Movement
You got me not saying Awakening no more! I’ll just say Holiness Movement. And this includes Warners. My father was born in 1909, would have been 100 last year. His father was born a slave in Mississippi and my grandfather was
first-hand a holiness preacher back then in that era. They healed the sick, etc. and people called them the ’sanctified folks.’ To say that this always occurred, even during the Papacy is counter-history.
To see why we use 1880? Cut and paste this link to your browser and read this article.
http://www.empowered21.com/history_19th_century_holiness_movement.php
With 1000’s of history books writing about the church soon or later some one would like 33/270/530/1530/and 1880 as the dates. So I am sure we can justify our dates just as the Seventh Day Adventists do. But that is the glory of the Revelation. There is flexibility with the dates because they are SYMBOLS. They can be right and someone with other dates can be right too as long as the symbols are fulfilled in that dispensation/era. The Seventh Day uses the prophecy of the 70 weeks to end in 1844 as the end. We know this date was false. The Jehovah Witness uses the dates of the prophecy of the Seven Times in Daniel 4 to end in 1914 as the time when the Gentiles are fulfilled. World War 1 began that year.
But D.S. Warner was able to hide behind HISTORY. Their dates are not future. So, as long as some history supports the idea they promote, whether we like it or not, we have to accept it. But no history supports that a great Reformation movement occurred in 1880 or that Danny occurred in 1980. That’s sad.
One last thing. What are the 3 days and a half?
There are five texts in the book of Revelation that include a time period covering 1260 days in one form or another. Two of these texts specifically utilize the phrase “1260 days” (Rev 11:3 and 12:6), two others the phrase “42 months” (Rev 11:2 and 13:5), and the fifth the enigmatic “time, times, and half a time” of Daniel 7:25 (Rev 12:14, cf. Dan 12:7).
I believe that the three days and a half, which are also used in Daniel 9 to indicate Messiah would be cut off in the middle of the week, [7 days cut to 3 1/2] I believe the 3 days and a half, in which the two witnesses arose, represent the same period that they were slain. I believe that while the two witnesses were slain, they were also risen in the same period. That is 270 to 1530.
Not 1530-1880. SO I end up with 1530 not 1880 for that. So I still sing, “The three days and half are past …” but I do not think they point to the no sect sect.
I am not and never have been part of the no sect sects. I am not on Dale Rude’s chart. I am not with Anderson. I believe I met you at Danny’s in Ohio.
I am friends with Curtis Edwards and Eula who I believe you know as well. I have seen you name in the literature. Please do not think I am ‘one of them today.’ :)
You cannot do what Warner and Danny and them are doing which is exactly what you so eloquently said: “go to lengths to validate their no-sect sect as predicted in the Bible. The great golden calf of the demi-god “ME”.
This statement endeared you to me. If only we knew when they taught us, the harm in doing this.
Lastly, A.D. 1930.
The no sect sects say this is when Goodnight started the Seventh Seal. GIVE ME A BREAK!!
But AD 1930. What’s the deal?
I agree that nothing significantly Christian happened. We had the Great Depression around the World and gross negligence of church membership. But I think the fact that nothing particularly happened verifies the Silence in Heaven when the Seventh Seal was opened.
I know you probably disagree with me on stuff, but get the spirit I am writing in.
I merely tried to show I believe the dates and I believe D.S. backdated, and I believe all these are no sect sects. The fact that they are divided the one from the other shows that they are sects.
In His Service,
Clifford L. Rhymes
thegreattrumpet.org
January 15th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
Hi Clifford,
I read most of what you posted in your above comment. I will try to address some of the things a later this week Lord willing.
Thanks!
Bob.
January 15th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Bro Clifford,
God bless you and it is good to see that you are still in the Lord. From a quick review of your website, it is clear that your ministry is very focused on the Book of Revelation. You probably view articles such as what Bob has written, as well as the linked articles, as opposing your core message, but I don’t think that is how this should be taken.
That there was a 1st century church, no one is denying. That there was a very early departure from the faith and apostasy, no one is denying. That there was a Dark Age in which Catholicism ruled, no one is denying. That there was a Protestant Reformation and a time of subsequent sect building, no one denying. That there were several great awakenings, including an awakening to holiness and the message of unity, no one is denying.
However, there is clear evidence that Warner, using Adventist calculating methods, backdated from 1880 to force a timeline that appeared to match some Revelation symbols is without dispute. I spent the first 43 years of my life in a ChoG sect and heard the Revelation message taught over and over. It was always preached forward and seemed to make sense at the time because I simply accepted what was taught about these dates. Yet when examined in an honest and unbiased environment, it is clear that some of the dates have NO historical significance at all, i.e., 270, 530, 1730, 1880, 1930. They are fictitious dates.
That does not mean that the overall message is in error. I still believe that the Book of Revelation is a pictorial view of the church and that is portrays the now historical events that she would be faced with.
But when people begin to look to specific men and their teachings, Luther, Wesley, Warner, Goodnight, Wilson, Layne, etc… they very quickly lose sight of the overall message (because men are not infallible). This is how we begin to form sects, even no-sect sects. Looking unto men rather than unto Christ is one of the underlying reasons why the Church of God (Capital C) is in the condition that it is in.
By the way, the schism chart that you referenced was going the centerfold of a booklet that described what the original pioneers of the Church of God tried to portray with regard to the teaching of unity. However, I never finished the booklet and got involved in something else. Clearly, this is another doctrinal teaching that the Church of God has not seemed to get right. Their fruit speaks louder than their toot.
Glad to be out of the Church of God, but still in the church of God.
Dale
January 18th, 2010 at 11:20 am
Dear Brother Rude:
I have read the links you placed in your response and I do not know where to begin in communicating some of the fallacies of the thinking of good people regarding the Revelation. I hope you take this response in the spirit given.
Before I begin, I am not a Revelation major. My site and ministry is not dedicated to the Revelation. I just closed out on some publications about the book so I am fresh from studying it. I am not a Seventh Seal advocate, as you guys like to group people. I am a Church History major with a degree in Church History. I held a position as a Professor of Biblical Studies once as a Church Historian. I do have a Church of God Reformation upbringing but mom and dad did not buy into the no sect sects, so as I preached the truth I was somewhat ostracized out of the movement, Anderson included.
I read your disclaimer: The information below is a compilation of facts and tidbits that have been gathered from interviews with family members, personal acquaintances and the personal writings of several of the earliest 7th seal advocates. The writer has tried to take an unbiased approach in putting together this information and has included mostly information that was collaborated by more than one source; however, he does not claim to have been infallible in his conclusions. With that, the following is provided for your consideration.
Your approach to the Revelation I am calling the no significance significance. Since you agree to the atmosphere that the prophecies told us about, you disagree with the dates, saying they have no significance, but then you provide no dates of your own, leaving us in the dark about the prophecies.
In fact, the entire site and the book you are working on appears, at earliest peep to be a book of disinformation and corrections, but we now are left with more questions and no answers for the significant prophecies of the Revelation.
The article suggests we have a date on our charts which no one can explain. But when we explain it, you still say it cant be explained. :)
This becomes abundantly clear when we make the insensitive statement that [because of backdating, I guess] that there is NO SIGNIFICANCE to the dates used. Are you serious? Can people be that ignorant of history?? Just a moment, let me mention the other fallacy and I will come back to history.
Fallacy #1 — This one is mostly indicative of people of the Church of God Reformation. Here goes. D.S. Warner and others are accused of ignoring true history to advance their ideas of interpreting the Revelation and pushing the Seventh Seal; But the accusers are also ignoring history that the rest of the world adheres to with these dates in order to prove the seventh seal is some sort of fabrication. In both cases, people are arguing the wrong thing.
WHAT IS MY TAKE ON THIS?? Glad to answer it.
The Date argument is a wrong argument just like Baptism in Jesus’ name or Father-Son-Holy Ghost is a wrong argument. The baptismal argument is insignificant if Jesus is equal to the Father and Holy Ghost. They are one and their substance is not divided.
THE DATES ARE SYMBOLS.
Not to be understood as solid dates. Let me try this another way.
Dates are significant based on what you are trying to signify.
April 12 is significant to me. It is the date my mom died. I was close to her, as you were to your mom and every April 12, I am saddened especially since she died because the hospital made an error.
Before midnight on April 14 is the date the Titanic crashed and April 15 is the date it sank and there was a huge loss of life. Some people prepared to board the Titanic on April 12. So that April 12 is significant to me for mom’s death and significant to others for the whole Titanic loss of lives.
One who lost their mother on 4/15 on a boat she boarded on 4/12 HAS THE RIGHT to hold the entire weekend as significant. It is insensitive for me to tell someone that they cannot grieve on April 12, nor take that date as historically sensitive because the Titanic did not sink until April 15. This is counter-intuitive and against common sense. Worse yet, it is insensitive.
The entire weekend is a symbol! Nor can one tell me that 4/12 - 4/18 when mom was buried, is not significant to me because she died on 4/12. But to be honest, she got sick on 4/06 so the entire month is significant to my family. We go to her grave all month to signify the great accidental loss of life of a great saint as she was.
I have heard the Revelation taught for over 40 years. In your article, I have seen
expressions used for the dates for the first time which I have never heard before.
To say that any of these dates points to one movement of which I am a part is erroneous and cultic. To this we both agree. But the dates on the Seventh Seal chart do not indicate conditions in their entirety, but it indicates also the atmosphere that creates the condition in its entirety.
That is, just as April 6, to me, signifies my mom’s passing, even though she was buried on April 18, and died on April 12, so God speaks events and warnings before, during, and after the events such that we cannot take the dates altogether literally.
In Isaiah he says, He WAS wounded, a full 721 years before he was born.
Peter said by his stripes ye WERE healed 30 years after his death.
We cannot go around insensitively teaching that those dates have NO SIGNIFICANCE!! Oh, my God???
Another example. Some Jews hold the Holocaust dates as significant - the entire period. Some blacks do not care about those dates. Some blacks hold the date of the Assassination of MLK as significant, some Whites do not care. Can you imagine a white person saying I will work today, on MLK holiday, because I feel his life had NO SIGNIFICANCE in American politics, in spite of all the history to the contrary.
To say that 1880 has no significance of any event in history when all over the world people herald that TIMEFRAME of the 1870s through 1900 as a Holiness Awakening, at least in teaching, is counter-history and shows a lack of sensitivity to those who honor those who pioneered holiness movements in that time. This will not make you popular, it will make you appear to be somewhat ignorant. It will make you appear to only be attempting to dishonor the 7th seal advocates. Who cares if they got the dates wrong or backdated if the dates can genuinely signify events that the prophecy is talking about.
The apostolic church which my grandfather founded in the late 1870s started on his preaching “LIGHT IN THE EVENING TIME - Zechariah 14:6-7″
This was before the evening light song books. There were many holiness and Pentecostal groups writing doctrines, preaching and singing songs with teachings of holiness that was never before preached since before the long days of obscurity had taken the teaching away. This was before 1880.
But we can signify this period from the 1800s through the early part of the 1900s and still be safe because the dates are SYMBOLS. They represent TIMEFRAMES, and in some cases ERAS, and not simply the year mentioned.
AD 33 Death of Christ
AD 270 Spirit Rule was replaced - morning time apostasy
AD 530 Papacy Rises Era of Papal Christianity – Popes
AD 1530 Protestantism Era of Protestantism – Augsburg, etc.
AD 1880 Start of no sect sect Holiness Movements [Sects]
Fallacy #2 — D.S. Warner is not here to defend himself on the article that you are calling EVIDENCE that he backdated.
Fallacy #3 — H. M. Riggle is not here to indicate his purpose was to correct the dates D.S. and the movement put forward, in the book “Cleansing of the Sanctuary.”
Absent these two men, we are left to take the word of advocates that possibly were against the Seventh Seal message. We are taking their words as evidence because some of them were children of the pioneers, etc? In the process, we have reduced their hard study to stupidity and without now pointing to what those great truths truly mean. In other words, what days are significant of the periods you admitted to in the last post?
I saw Emerson Wilson go off on one cleansing in the same manner. He reduced the teachings of the pioneers to outright fabrications about sin appearing in one’s life after the first work. I saw others jump on the band wagon, but he never was able to explain when does one become Holy, and what is the Righteousness that leads to holiness. (Romans 6:17). When does sin appear and what is the difference between inherited and committed sins?
There is an arrogance to saying that there are dates that have NO SIGNIFICANCE! Because we have to indicate no significance of what?
If we say “No significance”, without explaining “of what”
then we run the risk of being seen as a know-it-all who is insensitive of that which others hold significant.
WHY I SHOULD NOT BE GROUPED AS A 7th Seal Advocate:
According to your writing, you said of A.D. 270,
“for many years, we have sung about it, talked about it, looked at on many charts, yet we never questioned it! Because, it seemed to fit in perfectly with the rest of the picture. The 7th seal advocates continued on with the same line of thought as Warner and his followers, yet they divided up the church age into not four time periods, but seven time periods or time!”
I have never accepted anything without questioning, even in my earliest conversion. I just never accepted the vague teaching on the dates that so called 7th sealers taught. I an a church historian. I could not teach students anything like this:
270 - Apostasy begins. (what a joke. Apostasy said, I’ll start this year)
530 - (Popery begins)
1530 - Denominationalism begins
1750 - Sectarianism begins
1880 - Church of God is restored to unity
1930 - Goodnight opens the 7th seal.
Apostasy begins way before it is finalized. There is a falling away and then the Man of Sin is revealed.By AD 270 the church had fallen away, but the Man of sin had no political power to bring in a one world ruler. By Ad 530 he did.
This is simple history. To deny this is scary.
In 530, protesters against the Man of Sin were killed and could never gather any momentum to launch a serious attack against the man of sin, but by AD1 1530 they did. The Protesters overthrew the Pope’s rule in England and Germany and Missionary work was full ripe against Romanism. This is simple history. To deny this is scary.
By 1530 the Protestants had not formed into various groups honoring all their “heroes” and making little Popes or papas out of them but by AD 1750 they did.
The groups, name after Luther, Wesley, Huss, Wycliffe, Menno Simons, Quakers, and others were in full swing. They were denominations, all claiming to be right expressions of the one true church. This is simple history. To deny this is scary.
By 1750 only some of these groups taught “holiness.” The Wesleys, for example, taught a second work of grace in the heart enabling men and women to live holy. But by 1880 there were many groups teaching this and condemning those who were part of sects, denominations, catholicism, and any man-made church. Winebrenner was one of these. This is simple history. To deny this is scary.
By 1880 there were not many people teaching this succession of historical events and telling the story of the church in historical sequence with the Bible. But by AD 1930 there were many groups [not just Church of God] doing this. Goodnight was one preacher, but Clarence Larkin is famous today for his charts of the history of the church. In these charts it was made plain that all forms of man-made religion was wrong. Catholic, Protestant, Denominations, Sects, the whole lot of them. Of course, this could not be taught before these things were on the scene, but now they are denounced fully in this period. Whether these denouncers lived up to their teaching is another story, but in theory they taught this, but in practice they were and became divided. This is simple history. To deny this is scary.
More significant things are shaping up since 1930 for which the Church of God ministers have no trumpet.
The rise of the social materialistic gospel.
The moral ruin and religious decay of our time.
The divisions of the so-called holiness people (Your chart is the only thing even close to resembling a message from God about it. I truly believe in, and thank God for you. You are on the right track)
The rise of confusing sects and the confusing predicament of hailing and watching the evening light in obscure and gross darkness.
By 2010, the teachings of the 7th seal are all but extinct now. With articles denying any historical significance to the dates because they are taking the dates literally, multiplied thousands will never hear the message that all forms of man-made religion is wrong. Catholic, Protestant, Denominations, Sects, the whole lot of them. But this is according to prophecy. Maybe the real silence in heaven has begun now.
Most of this is from my book,
“In Defense of the Dates”
January 18th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
Bro Clifford Rhymes,
Your above response is a good example of why I like you so much! :o) You are passionate about what you stand for and are eager to get your input out there for folks to consider. God bless you dear brother!
I think your write-up is excellent and I don’t think we’re too far apart in our understanding. Your mother’s date of death is a great example to illustrate your case. I can certainly relate to it myself. I think the difference between our positions;is that while I acknowledge the historical events that you have described, I do not believe that the dates on our charts are firm dates, particularly those that I listed in my last post. I also think the events surrounding 1880 and 1930 are exaggerated and do not reflect world-wide significance.
You made a good observation in the articles on our website. While we are indeed reexamining things and have concluded that there was some error in our previous interpretation, we do not have an answer or solution to present. Sorry if that bothers you, but that is the honest truth. Maybe sometime we will have a better grasp on all of this. The purpose of these articles is to create dialog among brethren and to whet people’s appetitive, which they have been successful at doing.
Do you have a soft copy of your book that you could e-mail or post on your website? I would love to read it.
January 18th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Hi Clifford,
>>>This becomes abundantly clear when we make the insensitive statement that [because of backdating, I guess] that there is NO SIGNIFICANCE to the dates used. Are you serious? Can people be that ignorant of history?? Just a moment, let me mention the other fallacy and I will come back to history.
Can you show clearly that 270, 1530 and 1880 are significance dates for the fall of the church from its apostolic purity, the beginning of protestantism, and the last restoration of the church.
I maintain these dates are made to support the foundation of the Warner no-sect sect. That the apostolic purity of the church was lost long before 270, that 1530 is not a significance date for the start of protestantism, and that in 1880 their was no restoration of truth but only another OTVC sect started that claimed build the great golden calf of look at “me”. In fact I would see the latter years of the 1800’s to be a time of compromise of the holiness movement and the start of the false movement called Pentecostalism.
If you are going to hold to these dates you have to be able to show that 270 is a significance date for the fall of apostolic purity, that 1530 is a significance date for the fall of protestantism, and that 1880 is a significance date for the restoring of the church to its original purity.
The Warnerite movement is a complete mess. The majority of the original leaders fell away and when into error which what became Anderson. All we have left is the Anderson majority movement, and 50 or so squabbling sects of 1 to 50 congregations that all claim to be the one true visible church and consider everyone else Babylon.
I feel there is more support for the fall of conservative Christianity in 1880 that for the restoration of the apostolic purity.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
January 19th, 2010 at 12:22 am
Brother Mutch:
I have failed in my job of getting you to see that I agree with the dates but not with the symbols the dates are supposed to be symbolizing.
“Can you show clearly that 270, 1530 and 1880 are significance dates for the fall of the church from its apostolic purity, the beginning of protestantism, and the last restoration of the church.”
I do not believe either of these symbols. 270 is the date of the political strength given to the Pagan powers of Rome by which she later brought all under her dominance. 530 is when they were brought under. This is shown by the secular website which shows the ten kingdoms were in full bloom at this point.
Whether you agree or not, whether we like it or not, whether DS warner or Layne or Rhymes says it or not, all historians agree that there was a rise of Papalism and that the Bishops of Rome became the Popes in AD 530 — The political powers were controlled by the state. 1530 shows the rise of protestantism with the Augsburg confession and the defection of Luther from the Catholic church through protesting in AD 1530.
Why you disagree with this scares me. Not the fact that you disagree but why? What is the harm in accepting the truth that protestantism as a whole began with Luther and he began his massive protest in 1530 with the Augsburg confession? This you should be able to stomach and yet know that DS Warner backdated to get his date, and that all 7th seal followers may or may not have copied this date. Why do you keep saying this did not happen?? No, I really am worried. :(
I need only to prove that these events occurred and even if my dates are not firm, if they occurred in secession, then they are interpreted correctly in the Revelation.
One other thing, brother Mutch:
“I maintain these dates are made to support the foundation of the Warner no-sect sect. — Agreed for some people that this is true. Not all. There are some who hold this date who never heard of Warner or the COG position on this.
that 1530 is not a significance date for the start of protestantism, and
Most historians disagree with you.
that in 1880 their was no restoration of truth but only another OTVC sect started that claimed build the great golden calf of look at “me”. I agree with you and I disagree. There was a restoration of truth.
Here is where I want to add a thought ……………
That the apostolic purity of the church was lost long before 270, In fact I would see the latter years of the 1800’s to be a time of compromise of the holiness movement and the start of the false movement called Pentecostalism.”
Please do not judge the truth in the different ages based on what you and I now know. They did not have our means of interpreting Scripture, nor our education, in fact, the Bible was not even translated in their language so they did good to be in error. The light was not clear nor dark. So before 270 there was a loss of Apostolic purity but the new Christianity was unveiled in 313 AD by Constantine who was born around 270 AD. [272 to be exact]. If it makes you happy I would put 313 on the chart instead of 270. But it would not hurt my interpretation because the number is not intended to be firm in the Revelation. The NUMBER IS A SYMBOL!!
Those who were “Pentecostal” did not represent a falling away or loss of Apostolic purity or Holiness apostasy. Please lets not make the mistake of judging them for not having our means of education as though they had it.
Please do not judge the truth in the different ages based on what you and I now know. They did not have our means of interpreting Scripture, nor our education, in fact, the Bible was not too long translated in their language so they did good to be in error. The light was not clear nor dark.
Thank you for your writing.
January 20th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Hi Clifford,
Well I disagree with the dates.
I would hold that the dragon is pagan Rome, the beast papal Rome, and the mark of the beast false protesting sects.
As far as I can see the church when into the wilderness and never came out.
Past that I can’t see into the future and I reject all dating to prop up the sects of man.
Also I have little interest in these kinds of conversations. I would rather spend my time on working out my salvation, perfecting holiness, and hungering and thirsting after God.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
January 20th, 2010 at 8:03 pm
Brother Mutch:
Because you say, as far as you can see the church went into the wilderness and never came out, this reveals a very beautiful honesty on your part. I am sorry if I have made you upset or disinterested. I too, am not interested in all these types of conversations.
However, in my humble opinion, your statements almost shows that you gave some ministers too much respect and they messed it up so bad that you are now over-correcting the problem. and you aint lettin nobody mess you up again.
You will not accept the dates because it is fixed in your mind that it was done to build up “me” sects. That’s ok.
My motive here was to explain MY usage of the dates. You and I and Dale agree on much of what we are saying.
If we are going to quit talking about this, I would like to at least indicate that
What we disagree on is this:
The Book of Revelation, being a book of Symbols and the dates themselves being symbols, cannot be interpreted as we would look at doctrinal scriptures.
We can disagree on the dates but I see we have universal agreement on the symbols. But the no sect sects look at EVERY PASSAGE of Scripture as doctrine. They look at every cultural item as doctrine and this keeps them from growing.
Brother Mutch, I am sorry for all you have gone through for Christ fooling with these people. I BEG YOU to see I am not like them, nor do I believe in them. There are some things however, that we have to honestly admit in order to be free from “Babel in the Spirit.” to quote them.
We should not be bothered by these conversations.
We should not be saying we cant see into the future.
We should not be saying the church never came out of the wilderness.
We have to reexamine what we have been taught about the church. Who is the church? Who is not the church? If they could not rightly demonstrate that they are the church, why do we listen to them in telling us who the church is not??
If you want the straight oil from the can, then this is it simply: We HAVE TO ADMIT THAT ALL OF THEM ARE NOT THE CHURCH AND WE WERE NOT THE CHURCH WHILE BELIEVING IN THEM. All of them who fit the description in Romans 10:1 are not the true church.
We must denounce their brand of divided holiness and we must take not only the Word but the Spirit of God to help us. I am working on a book of encouragement for Christian Soldiers and the Revelation is not my specialty anyway. Let me say again, if I could, I would have kept you from every deceptive minister who came into your life transformed as an angel of light but what do we do, brother? What do we do? At least God has opened your eyes and you are not still in their wilderness of religious sin.
Here is my Scriptural conclusion for the no sect sects. I still love them and want them to be saved.
Substitute the word “Israelite” for the no sect sects:
Romans 10:1-4 - King James Version
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Message Bible
1-3Believe me, friends, all I want for Israel is what’s best for Israel: salvation, nothing less. I want it with all my heart and pray to God for it all the time. I readily admit that the Jews are impressively energetic regarding God—but they are doing everything exactly backward. They don’t seem to realize that this comprehensive setting-things-right that is salvation is God’s business, and a most flourishing business it is. Right across the street they set up their own salvation shops and noisily hawk their wares. After all these years of refusing to really deal with God on his terms, insisting instead on making their own deals, they have nothing to show for it. 4 The earlier revelation was intended simply to get us ready for the Messiah, who then puts everything right for those who trust him to do it.
January 23rd, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Bro Clifford: I noticed on your Parables Chart that you have the year 2000 listed on the right side of the header timeline. What event happened of any religious significance in 2000? Interested in your response.
Also, I can’t read the date to the immediate left of 2000. Is that 1933?
January 23rd, 2010 at 3:16 pm
What event happened of any religious significance in 2000?
Brother Rude, how are you?
Your question is a fair question but it shows that I have not communicated properly my understanding of the charts and dates thing. I will answer the question simply and then address why there are fallacies in asking those types of questions regarding a Clifford Rhymes chart.
The fallacy of the question at least, when referring to one of my charts.
Remember we are teaching prophecy and HISTORY with these charts.
Problem #1 is that there are no dates on any of my charts that reflect any one event of religious significance. These are to be understood as dates that reflect successive events that led to the condition to which we are referring. The conditions were either ripe on that date or were started on that date.
So that I would not be caught dead saying Paganism 270 AD, Protestantism 1530, etc. My charts are simply not that way. On the Parables chart you see no lines underneath the dates. This indicates that the dates are symbols and not to be confused with some great event of historical or political significance.
On the Revelation chart, the dates are centered over the lines which means the symbol occurred somewhere AROUND those dates.
Once again, this means that mom died on 4/12, was buried on 4/18, had an operation on 4/6, but EITHER date signifies the death. One date will signify her and your mom’s resurrection!!! Thank you, Jesus! So there is no EVENT to look for with the dates there are CONDITIONS to look for.
This makes me safer than the seventh seal advocates because we are all in agreement about the conditions of the churches in those ages in history.
So the dates represent the condition of the age which I strongly believe matches the seals, vials, trumpets, churches, and seven parables of Matthew 13. Let’s answer the question then, shall we?
What does 2000 represent is a better question.
There are three reasons AD 200 is on the chart.
(1) The year 2000 represents the year 2000. The close of the 20th Century, beginning of the 21st. It just shows that the seventh period of time will be continuing throughout the 21st century. It indicates no religious significance particularly and no political significance particularly. But it is on the chart for the same reason that Ohio is on the weather map that I saw on the weather channel this morning. Ohio is in the United States and the weather report was for this country. We are living in the 21st century.
Why did I put it on the chart? - Because when I was drawing this chart in the 1980’s and taught it at Washington college with many students from many different races and religious backgrounds, they insisted on thinking that I was teaching that 1930 was the seventh and final period and it was just natural for them to think of the close of this period as the end of the millennium. They thought I was teaching the world would end in 2000. So I took a chance by putting it on the chart and saying the world would NOT end in Y2K. The Lord would still be dealing with us even After the Millenium. Now the Lord could have come, and I could have been wrong, but he did not come in AD 2000. I did not want my chart to be used as signifying when the Lord would appear. That’s one reason why 2000 is on there.
Moreoverm I also knew that after the new Millennium, with the last date being 1930, the chart would soon become obsolete, the rightful question could be, “Does God not deal with man after 1930? Of course God deals with us even after the year 2000, so it is on the chart. If I live 50 more years, I’ll be 100 years old and if I could, I would add more years to the chart, still indicating the seventh period, because the dates are symbolic.
(2) The number two reason this date is on the chart is because the Lord deals with things to the third and fourth generation in the Scriptures. There is hardly any mention of the fifth generation in the Scriptures. He even forgives iniquities or visits iniquities down to the third and fourth generation. I am told that in the new Testament era, a generation is 30 years. Four generations is 120 years.
If 1880 is the time of the Reformation and if they have prophesied this to be the sixth seal, then the END OF THE REFORMATION MOVEMENT would be 120 years later - A.D. 2000! There is no fifth generation of a thing in all the Scriptures. God does something new and different. The Lord is not working anymore through that no sect sect that was started in AD 1880 in favor of using others who know nothing of what it means to be a no sect sect. God has visited the iniquities of the movement to the third and fourth generation and in AD 2000 Anderson made a statement that in their yearbook they will now include churches of God who have changed the name and even some other denominations. Back in the 1980’s, this parables chart prophesied the end of the Reformation Movement of the church of God. Her final exposing. The conversations You, I, and Bob Mutch, and others are evidence of this even though we are 10 years into the first generation of the thing that you and I and others will be starting. What will we be starting? Thanks for asking.
YOUR CHART OF THE SPLITS AND SCHISMS represents the judgment on the Reformation Movement necessary for God to bring us all the way out. Out to what??? Thanks for asking. God is no longer working in groups, sects like theirs. No one can say, “Lo, here is the kingdom, or there” The KINGDOM of God has to truly be within us now. Or What? There will continue to be splits and schisms.
Make no mistake about it, brother, your chart is definitely of God. I thank God for you. Why? Because Schisms and divisions shame our Savior, cause the world to scoff and disbelieve, sends many souls to ruin who would otherwise be saved. The churches of God continue to empty and the people continue to be disillusioned. As the old heads die out, us young-uns are not stepping into their no-sect-sect, free-from-sin-sinning, come-to-zion-and-onenes-divided-unity, hypocritical truthfulness shoes. Your chart helps people to see this. I submit to you that your chart is part of the spiritual revolution necessary for us to understand the END OF THE REFORMATION MOVEMENT.
On the Scary side is this, though. This is another reason why the year 2000 is listed.
(3) The seventh period on this chart is the period of the Parable of the Net. In that parable, Jesus says the fish were all pulled to shore and a separation was going on. The bad cast away, the good put in the baskets. The question we have to ask is this, “If the fish were all brought in, then who is out there manning the nets? Who is still trying to bring in fish? Must the gospel simply be reduced to just separating people now? Are there no people being saved and brought to perfection? The parable seems to indicate an end of true evangelism efforts as well as an end of the Reformation movement.
Since I grew up in holiness and in the Church of God I can say that it was easy for us to do stuff that we cannot seem to do today. The fellowship is strained. Revivals at the most are reduced to three days, Wed-Fri, with no Sunday Service, or just Weekend Revivals because people dont have time no more. The preaching is shorter. The church is not trying to win over the world no more like bygone days. This lack of evangelizing or reduction in evangelizing is symbolized by the parable of the Net, in my humble opinion. Worse yet, Are there no more evangelist? Where are they? We used to go hear Emerson in a Revival and then when he closed out, Bennie Reid, When he closed out, Horace Shepherd, when he closed out, Tyrone Cushman, Gilbert Thompson, Bertha Clark, Eugene Johnson, Ozie Wattleton, etc., etc, etc.
One could go the entire year in one revival after another.
But that spirit is gone. The spirit of whatever we thought we had in 1930 was gone by 2000. 70 years later, this is a mess and the preachers I mentioned did not all stay together. For all their preaching against division, they did not stay united.
As you know, 70 years was the number given to Daniel and 70 years had symbolic significance in the years Israel was captive in Babylon. Were we under 70 years of lies in the Reformation? From 1930 to 2000? Has the seventh seal been a lie? These are questions I am still examining, but your chart has put me on the right path. I ain’t connected to none of them. Dare I say this, but in the interest of truth, was the Church of God Reformation a man-made sect??
I must stop for now, I am getting sad. and I’m tired of writing.
God bless you, dear brother.
January 23rd, 2010 at 3:17 pm
The date to the immediate left of 2000 is 1930.
January 23rd, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Thanks for your response. I realize that it is very difficult to put into writing what one believes in his heart. Communication is so much better in person.
I am still having some difficulty sorting through a few of your statements. It would seem that you are saying that the symbols are just that, …symbols, and do not reflect or require an accurate date (although you seem to be convinced that 1530 AD is an actual prophetic year due to the writing of the Augsburg confession) . If this is the case, do you believe that the 1,260 days (time, times and half time, 42 months, etc…) are not literal years (a day for a year)? It would seem that if one accepts 313 AD instead of 270 AD as a more historical representative date due to the Constantine connection, and if one accepts the “day for a year” interpretation, one will have to conclude that 1573 AD must be a significant year. It is this manner of forward and backdating that has caused so much confusion.
Also, while I appreciate your kind words regarding the work effort of putting together the schism and splits chart, I do not believe that it plays any role in the beginning of a new reformation. The intent of the chart was simply to open up eyes within the Reformation Movement bodies. I do believe, however, that we are a part of a great new reformation that is presently taking place in America, as well as in many other parts of the world.
Finally, you will be blessed to know that at 95 years of age, Sis Ozie Wattleton (picture on the left) is still doing well and standing in the faith! We just spoke to her earlier this year. She is a very special sister to us and in fact, when we conducted our first outreach effort in 2006, we asked her to speak to us and to ask God’s blessing upon our efforts. As you may know, the Lord used her to raise up many congregations in the South, some of which are yet standing today. Would to God that the Lord had many more people like her who carried a burden for the lost and for the spiritual revival of the church.
January 23rd, 2010 at 6:31 pm
Brother Rude:
I was kind of joking about the new Reformation, but I was serious about the schisms chart being instrumental in delivering people from the Reformation.
I am saying that the symbolic dates are not to be taken literally as dates but TIMEFRAMES, ERAS, or AGES. Because of that they do not reflect or require an accurate date. But I am also saying that the 1260 years are literal. But when we start the count of the 1260 and when we end the count might not be the same. The confusion is on when we start the count and why? Some have said that backdating caused the 270 date, as if backdating is a sin when God gave you the 1,260 days prophecy. Backdating is common sense if you have the 1,260 days as 1,260 years. It is not wrong to do. Whenever you choose a date for the beginning or ending of the 1260, you are going to be forced to backdate. The math forces you to. It is a total misunderstanding of Revelation charts that forces one to fight backdating on the grounds that you cannot decipher prophecy with backdating. That is a crazy statement when you understand that we are talking about HISTORY. Not prophecy. You can backdate History! (I wont further there)
I merely indicated that we cannot say that 1530 is not Historically significant.
I hope you are not in doubt of a well-known historical fact that 1530 is the year of the writing of the Augsburg confession, which was used in the setup of Protestantism. You have stated that I “seem to be convinced” as if we have a different history than the rest of the world has. I am also “convinced” that on 9/11/2001 people died in the World Trade Center. But whether I am in agreement with this or not, the rest of the world goes on. It happened that day.
I was merely agreeing with a point that, to disagree with, is to admit to being ignorant. Whether we think 1530 is historically significant or not — it is. And it is significant of Protestantism. I am at a strong loss to see how anyone claiming to be intelligent can deny all the non-Church of God historical documents on this.
I just saw a special on the History Channel about this and they used both the 270 and the 1530 dates among others. That is all I was saying. But that is not why 1530 is on the chart.
Don’t say that I am ‘convinced’ that this date is significant of Protestantism, it just is. The rest of the world knows this. And reading the posts here is my first hearing that intelligent people deny the historical significance to the Catholic church and Popes of the effect of the Augsburg confession on Protestantism and that it occurred in 1530. But this date is also an era, a timeframe, an ‘age.’
The prophecy of the 1,260 days are also a symbol. The reason I wont go from 313 to 1573 is because I do not accept 313 as the starting of the 1,260. The text in Revelation must be followed carefully to know when the start time is. There were Scorpions, Locusts, Beasts and there were 42 months, 3 1/2 years, 1,260 days, and 3 1/2 days.
There are two ways of flirting with those prophecies. You can argue the accuracy of the dates. If so, the burden is on you to prove the starting point before the 1,260. You would have the ending point after the 1,260. Many historians could disagree on this.
The second way of flirting with this prophecy is to not concentrate on the dates but interpret what was to happen between the dates. Apostasy, Paganism, Papalism, Protestantism. The 1,260 days BEGINS with Pagan Rome and Apsotate Christianity and ENDS with Protestant Christianity and a demerited Pagan Rome. What comes in between? 1,260 years of Pagan Rome.
In this interpretation, the only literal dates you concentrate on is the 1,260 years. To pin-point what years they are is open to historians.
So once again, this means that mom was born in 33 AD, she died in 1530 AD - 1,260 years old at death. She was buried in 1880, but had an operation in 270 AD, but EITHER date signifies a certain part of Mom’s history.
So there is no EVENT to look for with the dates there are CONDITIONS to look for. This is all one story about the church and it is best viewed that way. But we have to put dates in to show it on a chart with relevance to where we live today.
These are interpreted by historical events because we are talking about history.
The error with some people is that they want us to prove these dates by the Bible which is not the right comparison. We prove the dates by history and any history that fits the dates works.
For example, I have seen people post that the Bible never teaches 1 day for a century. This is a true but invalid statement. It is invalid because you cannot teach prophecy and history as doctrine. Of course the Bible does not say that 1 day is 100 years. But guess what?
In the church of Smyrna Jesus said they would have tribulation 10 DAYS. They did not have tribulation only 10 days. Nor did they have it 10 years, a day for a year. They had it 10 CENTURIES. They had it during the long 1,000 year Millenial Reign of the Popes. This is a case where history fits the interpretation one day for a Century. To deny this is to deny this part of history.
Even if I do not agree with one day for a century with 1530 to 1880, I still cannot say NEVER is one day compared to One Century. One day is even compared by Peter to 1,000 years. But Peter was only indicating the 1,000 years was AS one day. Symbolizes it. The entire Revelation chart is one day. The Gospel Day. The entire Old Testament is one day. The day of the Law.
Let’s look better at your question:
Do you believe that the 1,260 days (time, times and half time, 42 months, etc…) are not literal years (a day for a year)?
I believe they are literal years, but I believe the starting and stopping points are impossible to pin down exactly because the Roman Calendar and Jewish Calendars were changed many time and we do not know the calendar God was actually going by. certainly not by the inaccurate Roman Calendar. This is why in this case it is not wrong to backdate. If you know there are 1,260 years and you know Protestantism, to which the 1,260 years points in 1530, you could be safe in backdating your beginning date to 270 AD. This is common sense.
Nothing significant has to happen in 270, because the prophecy points to the significant date of 1530 and backdates from 270. This is common sense.
Therefore, we hold the timeframe was from about 1530 - 270.
Backdating is totally wrong if you are backdating from an inaccurate Bible event or a non historical event and casting it as historical in order to fit your chart, your ministry, or your doctrine.
It would seem that if one accepts 313 AD instead of 270 AD as a more historical representative date due to the Constantine connection, and if one accepts the “day for a year” interpretation, one will have to conclude that 1573 AD must be a significant year. It is this manner of forward and backdating that has caused so much confusion.
It’s all in where you start the 1,260 and why you start it there.
If one dated the 1,260 as starting in AD 70, their chart would have to have
70-1330 as the 1,260
313-1583 as the 1,260
270-1530 as the 1,260
The only SURE thing is the 1,260. And we are saying that if you start anywhere other than 270 the 1,260 that God has required will end up at a year other than 1530 as significant for the start of Protestantism. This is not backdating alone, you are backdating but the 1,260 years are given to you by God, and the history of Protestantism is given by historians.
Why is it wrong to backdate when you are giving a history lesson?
January 23rd, 2010 at 8:20 pm
What is wrong with backdating?
The book of Revelation was not intended to be a church history book. It was not intended to be a source of information that looks backwards, allowing men to interpret the symbols based on previous historical events. The very first verse of this book tells us that it is about things that must shortly come to pass (future). Prophesy looks forward. History looks backwards. If we are correct in our eschatological view that this book portrays a picture of the church from her infancy until the second coming of Christ and outlines the spiritual conditions and enemies she would face along the way, it would serve no meaningful purpose for the saints down through the ages to only be able to read about what happened in years gone by past. They needed to know what was out ahead for the church and what would be facing in order to prepare and to overcome.
The underlying problem as I see it is that through the years, certain men have gotten lifted up or became overzealous in their understanding and saw themselves in this book. They made it personal to themselves. Once that happened, they found ways of justify themselves through private interpretations, including backdating if necessary. The means justified the end.
People or movements seeing themselves in the prophetic book is not just a “Church of God” problem. The Adventists were doing the same thing many years before Warner tried it. William Branham believed that he was the 7th church age messenger and he even used dates similar dating techniques as those used by the ChoG 7th seal advocates (see his chart timeline here). He died in 1965 and there are yet thousands of folks who follow his teachings yet today. Others have made similar claims, Danny Layne’s Restoration sect being one of the more recent ones to see themselves in this book.
Bottom line is that this is too important of a subject to simple play guessing games and engage ourselves in backdating and other questionable dating techniques to prove our case. We make ourselves look like complete fools when time itself proves, and has proven, that we were dead wrong. Remember when they used to have 1980 on the charts? Amazing how that date disappeared shortly after 1980 came and went and nothing happened. These failed prophecies do much damage to our message.
PS: If you look back through my posts, you will notice that intentionally left out the year 1530. I actually agree that this was a significant year as it was the birthdate of the rise of Protestantism. Now, how that actually plays into all of this, I am not sure.
January 24th, 2010 at 8:52 am
Hi Clifford,
>>>Dare I say this, but in the interest of truth, was the Church of God Reformation a man-made sect??
The Church of God evening light movement was certianly just another sect. But unlike most other sects it was a no-sect sect which is worse. It pointed people not just to Christ but to their no-sect sect. The no-sect sect is nothing more than a golden calf of the great demi-god of “ME”.
Their are many good idealist Christian people that get caught up in this flavor of no-sect sect but this doesn’t make the no-sect sect right.
This system looks very attractive from the outside because of the unity of conduct, dress, and doctrine. You may even find congregations of OTVC groups that have very humble, spiritual, caring and loving ministers. But it is a system that is doomed to fail, as it has no working checks and balances. It is a system that has no independent judicial system, no free property, no free press, and no freedom of religion — it contains all the marks of a dictatorship that imprisons and murders its citizens at will.
A system that is controlled not by the Spirit of God, but by back room meetings with ministers that are only accountable to themselves who are self-appointed judges, juries, prosecutors, police, and prison guards all in one.
They break up families and friends, they embitter the spiritually weak, they destroy the lives of the simple, and they hide sexual criminals — all in the name of Jesus for the betterment of the “one true visible church”. May God deliver us all from such a monster!
Bob.
January 24th, 2010 at 8:57 am
Hi Dale,
The follow in your post is a very good point!
This is a case of “I SEE ME IN THE BOOK”!
People or movements seeing themselves in the prophetic book is not just a “Church of God” problem. The Adventists were doing the same thing many years before Warner tried it. William Branham believed that he was the 7th church age messenger and he even used dates similar dating techniques as those used by the ChoG 7th seal advocates (see his chart timeline here). He died in 1965 and there are yet thousands of folks who follow his teachings yet today. Others have made similar claims, Danny Layne’s Restoration sect being one of the more recent ones to see themselves in this book.”
Bob.
January 24th, 2010 at 11:50 am
Brother Rude:
I have failed in trying to present the fact that we cannot judge the book and the message wrong because of the people who are wrong. For this reason, this will possibly be the last post. I am going back and forth with you on things that in my opinion are common sense. It is against common sense to say the following:
The book of Revelation was not intended to be a church history book. It was not intended to be a source of information that looks backwards, allowing men to interpret the symbols based on previous historical events. The very first verse of this book tells us that it is about things that must shortly come to pass (future).
That statement is true if you are stuck living in AD 70-96 when the book was written. But we are 2000 years beyond that date. Things have occured. We can look back on the prophecies now from a historical view. We do that everywhere else but cant do it with the Revelation??
“Prophesy looks forward. History looks backwards. ” This statement needs explaining or it is not true.The prophecies of Daniel pointed forward and are now history. The one that was not fulfilled in Jesus’ day, the Abomination of Desolation, was forecast again by Jesus. But Jesus himself looked backward on the prophecies.
Isaiah pointed forward “By his stripes you are healed”. That was a prophecy but Isaiah spoke in CURRENT TENSE, not future tense. Then Peter picked up the fulfillment of the prophecy and stated “By his stripes ye WERE healed.” Peter spoke in the PAST tense about a prophecy. Peter looked backward at the prophecy. But this is common sense and prevalent throughout the entire Bible.
When the prophecy is fulfilled, they looked BACKWARD and stated “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Jeremias, Esaias, etc.”
The one that really backs what I am saying is the story of the Eunuch and Phillip. THe Eunuch was reading Isaiah 53 which was all fulfilled. Isaiah pointed forward but used the present tense. “He IS despised and rejected of men.” The Savior was 721 years away from coming. Jesus was -721 years old!!! But the prophecies pointed as if he were already here. The Eunuch asked the question, “of whom is the prophet speaking, himself or someone else?” The whole reason God sent Phillip to him is that he knew the HISTORY of Jesus, man, he LIVED this history with Jesus. So what did Phillip do? Phillip began at the same Scripture and preached to him Jesus!!! He told him of the Savior, of his coming, and his birth, etc., he told him of his call to follow him and the miracles. he told of the suffering and the load he had to bear and then he looked BACK at the Scripture that he was reading in Isaiah. Because the Eunuch saw prophecy and history meeting together - the prophecies pointed to the events and the history pointed to the prophecies, then it all met together. Phillip taught him about baptism and the Eunuch said, what does hinder me to be baptized. He was converted strictly on the history of the prophecy.
When you say “If we are correct in our eschatological view that this book portrays a picture of the church from her infancy until the second coming of Christ and outlines the spiritual conditions and enemies she would face along the way” that is good.
But when you say, “it would serve no meaningful purpose for the saints down through the ages to only be able to read about what happened in years gone by past. They needed to know what was out ahead for the church and what would be facing in order to prepare and to overcome.”
What saints are we talking about? Again this statement shows that we need to understand that we are dealing with saints IN ALL AGES. They do not know one another or live with each other, they are not in the same country. The Book of the Revelation and all prophecies of the Scripture do not have any PRIVATE interpretation. They are interpreted UNIVERSALLY. It would serve NO MEANINGFUL PURPOSE?????????
Romans 15:4 — Then the entire old testament serves no meaningful purpose. How can it not be meaningful for me to look at the history of anything? Let alone church history? We look at history not to help those who lived and died but for us. I do not get it.
“this is too important of a subject to simple play guessing games and engage ourselves in backdating and other questionable dating techniques to prove our case.”
This statement is embarassingly rebellious when applied to me. I do not know about Warner and Layne, etc. My teaching was done before I ever read their books. But to say it is wrong to track a prophecy to its fulfillment and then refer to it and use the dates makes no sense. To call it a guessing game is rebellious. To deny the value of fulfilled prophecy is to keep oneself in the dark as did the Pharisees and Scribes when they say Jesus fulfilled prophecies all around them and ignored it.
“My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.” Was uttered first by David in Psalms 22. It was fulfilled on the cross. To go back to the date it was prophesied and add the 1000 years between them is proper backdating. Because it was fulfilled.
The guessing is in backdating an unfulfilled even. But this too, is common sense.
Jesus backdated to prove his case when he said “O fools and slow of heart to believe all the prophets …..” When Isaiah said a virgin shall conceive, the gospel writers referred to the event.
If we take your statements to their logical conclusion, then this means that you cannot validate history. Validating historical facts and dates is backdating.
“We make ourselves look like complete fools when time itself proves, and has proven, that we were dead wrong.” If this is backdating future events, I agree with you.
“Remember when they used to have 1980 on the charts? Amazing how that date disappeared shortly after 1980 came and went and nothing happened. These failed prophecies do much damage to our message.”
I do not remember seeing ‘1980′ on any chart. And I do not know what it was supposed to signify. They have not influenced my writings, history and prophecy has. Of course there are people who go to extremes in all faiths with these things, and Bob’s last post is GREAT, but the spirit of your posts is such that you cannot see the book being interpreted away from these fakers. In your mind you are linking me to them and I am not them. I dont think like them.
The only thing we fully agree on is that we cannot backdate to come to 1880 and say we see ourselves in the prophecy unless we are truly in there. The prophecies do not point to one group or man, especially given the history of the reformation, especially Dale’s chart. Your chart was not prophesied by either of these people but you cannot deny the common sense backdating that occurs when we are just comparing prophecy with history. It may safeguard you from their deception but open you up for yet another deception.
January 24th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Brethren,
This has been good, “iron sharpeneth iron.” I know it’s hard to convey points and avoid misunderstandings through writing. I would love to see more non-sectarian truth published, especially to explode the “Left Behind” fables. There is so much trash out there that people can see nothing else. If we get too bogged down with the no-sect details we may forget about all the others.
January 24th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Bro Clifford,
I am sorry.It was not my intent at all to hurt or offend you, nor was I even referring specifically to you when I made the statement about using backdating and other questionable dating techniques to prove our case. I don’t even know you. Never talked to you and only have had minimal correspondence with you via e-mail. By simply looking at the charts on your website, I had no idea if your dating setting techniques were simply copied from others or if you came up with them on your own. Since you used the same dates on your chart as nearly everyone else that I know (except the 2000 date), yet you stated that you have not arrived at them in the same manner as others have, i.e. backdating, I assumed you could provide an explanation for them based on actual historical events. You have presented your case, at least in part, yet I remain skeptical of the evidence for the use of these dates. Simply stated, I still believe that 270, 530, 1730, 1880, 1930 are fictitious dates.
Please be patient. I am simply trying to sort out all of this out. I have found over the past few years that I was wrong in many areas of my understanding. And, since I simply accepted the teachings surrounding the Book of Revelation nearly without question from those who taught me (well meaning brethren), I am likely to be wrong in this area as well.
Having said that, in the future and by the grace of God, I will not simply accept something from anyone simply because they said so or are firmly convinced, no matter how sincere they may be. If our teaching cannot stand up to scrutiny and the light of the Word, it can’t stand up at all.
Please take no offense for it is certain that no offense is intended.
September 10th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
I’ve never seen but have heard of the chart having 1980 at the end signifying the end of time I believe; not sure why, just didn’t expect things to last any longer than that, I think. But then when that didn’t happen it was taken off. Don’t much more about it just glad it didn’t happen; I’d never even heard of C(c)hurch of God until the next year when I got saved.