Question: Bob have you realized that it was not a man or ideology that was all to blame but there was something wrong with you or you would not have so easily fallen prey to Restoration error.
Answer: To some degree, yes I have. All those that have been a part of the Restoration to one point or another imbibed in the “we are it” spirit. Perhaps some more and some less but we all were a part of that spirit.
We all to some degree pointed people to Jesus and the “one true visible church” (OTVC). To some, if not most, the OTVC was a golden calf just like tongues to the Pentecostal, Saturday keeping to the Seventh Day Adventist, Oneness and Jesus name baptism to the United Pentecostals, and baptism regeneration to the Church of Christ groups.
Most that have left the Restoration are in denial and state they had not imbibed the spirit of sect OTVC like most. I have even found myself saying this very same thing. But all I have to do is look back at some of the articles I wrote for the Restoration and see that I imbibed the golden calf of sect OTVC more than I like to admit.
So the first step is to realize what great error we were in and the next is to repent before God and confess our error publically. The Church of God Restoration category on my this blog is where I have made my public confession of the sin of god making and idol worship.
I confess that I was deceived by man into believing the OTVC teaching, and pointing people to the golden calf of sect OTVC. And I would point out here, we had a golden calf long before Danny Layne came around. Layne just helped us develope a more fervent love for the golden calf that we already had.
This golden calf was us, or better put this golden calf was me — raw self worship. So in reality we were pointing others to us. Or perhaps better said I was pointing people to me! This is the sin of pride, idol worship, and self worship and caters to the depraved nature that we claimed to be free from.
When you point people to something other than Christ or even to Christ and something else you have created your own god. It doesn’t matter if it is tongues, Saturday keeping, Oneness and Jesus name, baptismal regeneration, or OTVC — it is a god. Of these errors OTVC is the worst as you are not only pointing people to a false concept or doctrine but you are pointing them to yourself!
We may plea ignorance but we still must repent of the sin of god making and idolatry that we committed while we were in the Restoration. And this is not only the Restoration but it is the Guthie group and the German COG group and yea all other OTVC groups whether they are of the Warnerite, Holdemanite, or Campbellite branches.
The longer we are away from sect OTVC (the Restoration) the clearer our understanding of our sin of god making and idolatry should become. Likewise the deeper and clearer our repentance for that sin should be. Personally I have only been out of the Restoration for 2 years and I only starting to see how wicked the golden calf of OTVC is.
The OTVC golden calf corrupts peoples sense of doing unto others what you would want them to do to you. The Restoration will tell people you should check out all rumors you hear about them but then they will willful turn around and take up any rumor they can get against those that have left or been put out and refuse to check it out and repeat it as the truth.
The OTVC golden calf corrupts peoples sense of being led of the Spirit of God. You must now accept and hold to what the Restoration teaching you in doctrine, practice, and dress. It takes away the dependance on the Spirit of God to lead and guide you and replaces it with the direction of man. While this many seem find as long was they are teaching what you consider the truth it is a system with out checks in balances. When you put your trust in man and get all your leading from man you are setting yourself up to believe a lie.
The OTVC golden calf corrupts peoples sense of determining by the Word and Spirit who is a child of God. If the Restoration holds that someone who rejects their golden calf is not saved then you must follow their example of calling that which is clean to be unclean. This is an abomination to God.
The list could go on but I will leave it there for now.
What what is the bottom line.
1. Forsake all groups that claim to be the OTVC.
2. Repent before God for the sin of god making and idol worship and then openly confess this publically and blame only yourself.
3. Don’t blame it on Layne. This was the fallen response of Adam and Eve. Why it was that women you give me, oh it was the snake that tempted me, or it was Danny Layne that deceived me.
4. Don’t be bitter. If you own up and blame yourself and not others this will help you to not be bitter. It is much easier to forgive yourself and not to be bitter toward yourself than to forgive and to not be bitter toward others.
5. If you have been bitter and shown a nasty spirit toward the Restoration confess that before God and make it right with those that you have slandered. We don’t know who will be next to leave the Restoration.
6. Stand free and don’t be entangled again in the yoke of bondage and angel (minister) worship.
7. Don’t throw out all the good you learned while with the Restoration. Throw out the bath water but keep the baby.
8. Seek God like you have never sought him before. Pray, pray, pray, and then pray some more. Love the Word of God and read, meditate, and memorize it like you have never done before.
9. Heap coals of fire on the heads of the Restoration but doing good to them. Be kind to them when you meet them. Help them out all you can. Go out of your way to bless them. Give them the benefit of the doubt and accept them as Christians. PRAY FOR THEM!
10. Stop gossiping about them! Get over it! Grow up! Move on! Live right! Work for Jesus! Get ready to die and go to heaven — I have. We will all be dead and find ourselves standing before God in no time at all.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
I agree. We need to accept responsibility for ourselves. For me it was not the ministry but the ideology. Danny and me were always butting heads about plural ministry, he told me “there can be only one chief in the tribe.” Instead of a harmony of individuals connected by their own individual experience to Christ, we became a religious fascist state. When the split came we were like the Nazis at the end of the war; when the sacred city began to collapse around us we were in a daze, some committed spiritual suicide, some took years to be rehabilitated.
I think some of those who got bitter over all that happened to themselves personally, not how they grieved the Lord, are the ones who bombed out the worst. The majority only have a “group” experience and so had no foundation of their own to fall back on. Might as well find out sooner than later. A good firestorm is a revealer of what will not stand in the judgment, it was a blessing to be thrown out and slandered, it woke us up.
Kind of amusing actually when I think of the logic of how Danny did things, he must have been in quite a panic to preserve his position as lord over God’s heritage. First he told his followers to stay away from us until they could come and hold a meeting. After his big political “support the man of God” campaign came through and we didn’t pledge our allegience to the man, those who supported the new apostle could not even look at us.
We were accursed and condemned, they continued meeting somewhere else. After they left us they said we are not saved because we left the church. It’s hard for them to see that they believe that without Danny there is no church. We could have easily kept the building and all the assets because we didn’t change or leave, they did. And we still had the preacher. But that would have been acting the way Danny did.
We were already getting sick of the whole thing, we threw out the bathwater and gave them the building and made a complete departure. “Touch not the unclean thing.” You can beat a skunk but you won’t come out smelling good when you’re done. This apostle idea had never been used before but was hatched at this time to try to justify Danny’s right to rule over everyone like a Pope. It was rightly named Restoration. It is a restoration of early Catholicism. It no longer has any resemblance to the reformation they claim to follow.
None of us has it all just right so we might as well get used to the fact that we are stupid sheep that really really need to stay close to our true Shepherd. As far as not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, the baby is a beast, throw it all out and start on a clean foundation, Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Anything good will come right back to you. With groups like the Restoration, Jesus said to “leave them alone, they are blind leaders of the blind.” We just need to follow Jesus and pray for those kept behind the walls and barbed wire.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
Hi Ed,
>>>We could have easily kept the building and all the assets because we didn’t change or leave, they did. And we still had the preacher. But that would have been acting the way Danny did.
The ones that left Layne in Chilliwack keep the building and rightfully got it as they were the majority. From what I heard I doubt those that didn’t follow Layne in Steinbach would have been able to keep the building as they were the minority.
You are right on one thing. Most that left crashed and burned and lost their children to the world. Even the pastor and his wife when back to the world. I am not sure how they are doing now but I pray for them from time to time. The only ones that seemed to get out in one piece and held do the old paths were the Stephenson’s.
Thanks!
Bob.
January 13th, 2010 at 6:48 pm
Hi Bob,
“The world” takes two forms. On the one hand it is all that stuff like smoking , drinking, partying and not going to church. Opinions vary a lot on this, some religious people think that if you subscribe to the electric utility you are in “the world.”
Others who would be considered compromisers by these people believe that all those wear colors or drive cars with chrome are “worldly.” And on and on it goes, making God look foolish to those watching. On the other hand there is “the world” that includes religion. The fanatical monks of the dark ages thought that they could leave “the world” and attain more “holiness” by wearing rough, colorless long robes, eating poor food, and enduring hardship in some obscure place away from society.
But they were very much “of the world.” The young people in the Restoration group are no more safe from “the world” than young people who have normal connections to society. In fact they are in a worse position. The “Pharisee” type of religious leaders tend to make their followers “twofold more a child of hell” because of all the hypocrisy and filthy attitudes that breed underneath that shallow so-called holiness front. “The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” are found in religion in a more hideous and putrid form than in the bars and dance halls.
The reason so many had a hard time after coming out of the Restoration group was because they didn’t have the depth they could have had. The ones still in there have even less. They had a group experience. They had poison-laced spiritual food and drink most of their life. There will be “hell to pay” for those who put themselves in positions as lords over God’s flock and then “offend these little ones who believe in me.” Woe unto them. They shall receive the greater condemnation.
Jesus always takes the side of the bleeding and hurting. Unfortunately, just because someone dresses according to your “old path” idea and agrees with your theology doesn’t mean that they are spiritually mature or safe from “the world.” And like I said, the fire is good. It shows up things that are hidden under a religious form. We either deal with things now or we take them with us to the judgment.
January 14th, 2010 at 11:15 am
Hi Ed,
I read your post and the points you made. I will try to respond to it at another time.
Thanks!
Bob.
January 14th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Hi Ed,
>>>The young people in the Restoration group are no more safe from “the world” than young people who have normal connections to society.
I disagree.
>>>In fact they are in a worse position. The “Pharisee” type of religious leaders tend to make their followers “twofold more a child of hell” because of all the hypocrisy and filthy attitudes that breed underneath that shallow so-called holiness front.
I know that not every one in the Restoration is living right. There are lots of up-and-down people, hypocrites, and unsaved. I could never say that the Restoration member are twofold more a child of hell. To me that kind of an idea is so judgmental. I mean I know you feel like they did you wrong Ed, but come on. I think your going to be in trouble on the judgment day Ed.
>>>The reason so many had a hard time after coming out of the Restoration group was because they didn’t have the depth they could have had.
I would change would to should and then we will agree. But you are right, it really showed what a unspiritual groups of people the Chilliwack congregation was as a whole and I will add my self in there. I may not have got bitter but I when into sin after the Chilliwack congregation feel apart and was backslidden untill I move to Aylmer (about 2 years or so).
>>>Unfortunately, just because someone dresses according to your “old path” idea and agrees with your theology doesn’t mean that they are spiritually mature or safe from “the world.”
I agree.
>>>We either deal with things now or we take them with us to the judgment.
Amen!
January 15th, 2010 at 2:24 am
No, I don’t say the restoration members are children of hell unless they allow the spirit of the false prophets and teachers to take over their spirits. Jesus said many harsh things about Pharisees, so did Paul, he said to “beware of dogs, evil workers and the concision;” the ones trying to “deceive the simple” into a legalistic outward form like Judaism, so they can rejoice in their submission to them and their idol.
Jesus said that they would “compass land and sea” to make one proselite and then they would make them worse than themselves, or “twofold more the child of hell than themselves.” He said they and those who followed them would both fall into a ditch. “Evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse deceiving and being deceived.” Sorry but that’s the way it is.
I would be uncharitable to not give warning where it is needed. I have already lost family and friends there. You have lost a child and wife there. There are many many more sad and painful stories. Do you want to be responsible for someone elses life or family being destroyed?
January 15th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Hi Ed,
>>>No, I don’t say the restoration members are children of hell unless…
So how many of them do you think have as you would put it allowed “the spirit of the false prophets and teachers to take over their spirit”. Most, few, many, all, ministers only.
I think one thing we must be careful not be do and that is to become the very thing we comdemn. I see a lot of people so blind that the very spirit they comdemn in the Restoration they have themselves two fold.
I hold that the Restoration is legistic, that they have an authoritarian ministery that Gentile lords it over the members faith, and for the most part they are sectarian and biggoted toward other believers that won’t bow down to the golden cow of their no-sect sect. I have personally found a number of their ministers and members to be arrogant and loose with the truth.
But at the same time I just couldn’t bring myself to condemn them as a whole and write them off as not saved.
I find that those that are quick to comdemn are typically blind to their own faults. When we see our own lacks we should become more merciful. It does little good to judge others but much good to judge ourselves. Perhaps you should offer the Restoration the excuses you make for you own faults, errors, mistakes, or as you call them sins, and the judgment you are inclined to put on them put on yourself.
Go into your study and write an article condemning all you see wrong in yourself. Get before the mirror and preach a message on the faults, failures, and as you call them sins of Ed Schier and spare not the rod. There is much more profit in this then railing on the Restoration.
I keep a list of my greatest weaknesses and review the list from time to time. I also keep in mind the times after I knew Christ that I when back into the world and lived in sin. I have found these two practices to be very helpful in keeping a low opinion of my own spirituality and opinions and being mercyful to others. I would encourage you to do the same.
With love I remind you that all the years I have known you, you have had a reputation for being judgmental and harsh spirited. Most of the time your diagnosis was right on the money but over and over the medicine you dished out did more harm than help. Now you are out of the Restoration but is the Restoration out of you?
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
January 15th, 2010 at 6:04 pm
You just can’t see can you? Even when the thing destroys so many, has such bad fruit you can’t understand that it is a beast. It’s nature is not to save and nurture but destroy. We have all seen it. So what if there are innocent victims, so what if preachers are sincere, it is not the Spirit of Jesus that is working.
And to recommend people to visit their meetings when everyone knows their hidden motives and what happens to individuals, marriages and families when some get their spirit is just plain blindness. If that is too harsh and judgmental for you it is because your heart is obviously still there.
January 15th, 2010 at 10:44 pm
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. 1 Thess. 5:21-22
This is a good rule to go by. I would apply this to the different teachings of different churches. My opinion on the Restoration is that we should learn from their good teachings, and abstain from their errors and learn from them that we not be guilty of the same errors.
This group seems to have a mixture of Hypocrites and Christians.
Bro Bob, I would agree with your writings, and your 16 points, etc., seem to describe the way I see the group from me and my family’s experiences with them in the past. Faith and Victory seems to be in a similar boat, but they are not near as sectarian, and they have some wonderful Christians that I am friends with, yet they also have many problems.
I would compare both groups to Sardis Rev. 3:1-5. Remember that most church groups are in some way worst shape than these churches, look at the U. Methodist, the Catholic, the Episcopalians, the Muslims (Anti-christian), the Lutherans, and you will look at any of the conservative Christian groups as decent churches, such as the Apostolic Pentecostals, the Mennonite groups, German Baptist, Restoration, Faith & Victory, Pilgrim Holiness, Amish, Charity, Bible Methodists, conservative baptist, and any other group that has Christians in them that try to serve the Lord in everything they have light on and forsake all Known sin.
I am sure that I would disagree with a teaching of every one of these groups, but we must only condemn wrong, and not ever disregard truth or condemn the justified christian children of God,
Matt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Some people have been harmed by the Restoration, but the fruit of a Christian is to forgive, and pray for them.
“For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
-1 Peter 2:20-25
Strive to enter in at the straight gate, for wide is the gate that leads to destruction.
We can see others faults real good but are apt to be blind to our own. We need to pray for both groups and examine ourselves lest we be guilty of a greater evil.
Pray for me, Paul
January 16th, 2010 at 12:25 am
Hi Ed,
>>>You just can’t see can you?
I think I can see just as you think you can see. But no I don’t see things the way you seem them.
>>>Even when the thing destroys so many, has such bad fruit you can’t understand that it is a beast.
The Restoration has done good and it has done bad. When I look at 5 of the 7 churches in the book of Revelation I see many problems but I don’t see that they were called a beast but a congregation of God with a lamp stand.
>>>And to recommend people to visit their meetings when everyone knows their hidden motives and what happens to individuals, marriages and families when some get their spirit is just plain blindness.
Any one I have personally recommended to attend a Restoration meeting knows where I stand concerning them. Those that read the notice of their meetings on my website would for the most part have seen my articles about them.
I think their are good things and good examples at the Restoration.
>>>If that is too harsh and judgmental for you it is because your heart is obviously still there.
My heart is not there at all. I love the people and miss them dearly. I think the sectarian and bigoted spirit they have toward those that have left or been put out is ugly.
Any way it looks like we are started to just rehash the things that we have really discussed. Let’s move on.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
January 16th, 2010 at 12:31 am
Hi Paul,
I would feel like you have a balanced view of the Restoration.
Christian love and prayers,
Bob.
July 8th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
I find these comments very interesting. I don’t think any of us see ourselves clearly.
What do I see?
I see Ed is really hurt, and I see bitterness, I’ve heard a lot about what happened with his family, and I know his daughter, I understand.
I see that Bob is trying to be as diplomatic and unbiased as possible. I don’t think that’s possible Bob. I don’t think you can be in the middle on this. I understand how hard that is, with your spouse still heavily involved there.
Who am I?
Now, looking at my own beam. After seeing the error of the teachings of the Restoration, after being there for over a decade, God gave me the strength to leave.
I’m holding on to the baby, throwing out the nasty bath water, and trying not to turn into what I didn’t like.
It’s like when grown children, look back at their parents, and list all of the things they didn’t like, that hurt them, etc… Then years later, they look at their own faults and say, “I’m just like my mother”, or “I sound just like my dad”.
The cogr raised me from a babe in Christ, but I think those of us that can see beyond what’s on the surface, should warn others, (and yes Bob, I love and miss many there dearly).
Yes, you will find doctrine that may not be solid in all biblical points in lots of churches, (i.e. the ones “Paul” listed the comment above), but I do feel the cogr can be harmful where those other churches are not.
Bob, I appreciate your 1 Cor 13 spirit, and I don’t think you will violate that to call a duck “a duck”.
May God helps us all.